So, Gabe just got released...

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samostrong
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So, Gabe just got released...

Post by samostrong » Sun Oct 26, 2008 1:10 pm

Yeah, apparently so. (SEE: wrestleview.com)

The front page cited the company wanting a different direction.

I wonder where they could be looking to go?

And who would they bring in?

Apparently they're at early stages of negotiating a TV deal do you think this could be in relation to a more TV friendly (I.e. less Smarky) show?

He had a good run, circa 05 is some of the best wrestling I've had the pleasure to have watched. But the Stable Warfare~!! was what made me stop watching back at the start of last year, and I haven't been that highly motivated to get back in to it.

We shall see who comes in now though...


Any thoughts?
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Re: So, Gabe just got released...

Post by The Fonz » Sun Oct 26, 2008 1:27 pm

I'm not totally against this. As you said Gabe did book some of the best wrestling and on top of that generally some really really awesome stuff a few years ago, but the last 18 months or maybe even a little more in ROH have just seemed stale. I'm curious to see this new direction and more excited than worried.
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Re: So, Gabe just got released...

Post by samostrong » Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:34 pm

So you reckon it's creative differences then that lead to the split?

I to am excited about this new direction I've been looking to get back in to ROH for a while but have been a bit "meh" about it.

I wonder who will be booking the show now though?

Paul Heyman - would obviously be kept away from the financial dealings but is he up to date with the talent on the ROH roster?

Mick Foley has signed for TNA obviously but I wonder what he would have done if given the book at ROH, he definitely has a lot of respect there?
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Re: So, Gabe just got released...

Post by SilentBob » Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:06 pm

I've read on another site that they replaced Gabe with Adam Pearce, looking for more of a 70's style wrestling show.

I'll take it with a grain of salt until I see it on WV but it doesn't seem entirely ridiculous.

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Re: So, Gabe just got released...

Post by samostrong » Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:41 am

^^ Confirmed on the front page.
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Re: So, Gabe just got released...

Post by blind » Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:44 pm

Gabe pretty much always looks pissy from what I've read.

I've mentioned this a few times, but you can't book forever on the basis that every card will feature a MOTY...

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Re: So, Gabe just got released...

Post by samostrong » Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:53 am

^^ Agreed. Apparently, Adam Pearce is booker but also playing Kayfabe booker?! I mean what the fuck - suspension of disbelief and all that. Now we're supposed to buy Pearce coming out to the ring and announcing himself in a World Title Match, because he is the real and kayfabe booker?!

Have I got myself confused?
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Re: So, Gabe just got released...

Post by towney007 » Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:28 pm

Believe you me... ROH has like... a year left to stay in existence tops at this point. As much as I swung for the fences in my article, I left a LOT of stuff out.

They've spent SO MUCH money bringing in Japanese talent (I mean imagine how much it'd cost for NOAH or New Japan to bring in Cena, Triple H, Taker or someone along those lines), flying them here, shacking em up, paying them for working, etc...

They've spent far too much on pay per view production.

They're running shows all over the US, which is mind blowingly stupid.. and expensive...

Like I said, Gabe is a horrendous businessman and now that it's all sort of coming out... a pretty limited booker, too. Basically, from a promotional standpoint, ROH was going to do well no matter who was putting the programs together. The only thing Gabe really did to hook people was use continuity in his story lines... which was something that the WWE and in it's dying years, WCW, had ditched (2002 WAS the year of Triple H humping a corpse after all)... it had taken such a hiatus that people were just crazy to see it injected back into a wrestling promotion.

They had a great run in 2005, got hit losing a lot of talent and then trying to push growth in the midst of a downturn... That's essentially what happened...
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Re: So, Gabe just got released...

Post by samostrong » Sat Nov 01, 2008 8:20 am

So my question to you Towney would be - can they be saved?

Returning to Philly/New York (aka ECW venues) be a good start. But would the company be willing to do this? Do they even realise how much trouble they're in?

Stop brining in the Japanese talent is another obvious solution, as they're almost always bought in for potential MOTY candidate matches rather than story line progression.

I haven't watched the DVD's in about a year, so I don't know what state the story lines are in, but are they doing anything really daft/really good at the moment which they need to scrap or expand?

I watched a Newswire yesterday with Daizee Haze getting rail road spiked. Not exactly going to bring the Kids+Parents market in at the moment, unlike the all action Paul London, AJ Styles era matches, or the Will he Wont He Cm Punk angle from '05.

A return to basics, me thinks?
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Re: So, Gabe just got released...

Post by OneManX » Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:42 am

ROH storyline wise... good. All the stories are being booked goodo and the people following it are loving it.

But I think ROH needs to scale back, but it might be too little too late, alot of indy companies like PWG and CHIKARA, generate their own revenue by growing in tht market and not spreading themselves too thin, if anything THIS would be the year I'd take ROH to Japan, but they've been doing in since, like '05-06

IDK who said it, but ROH has hit that level of too big to be indy, too small to be major, they're best bet would be a deal with the WWE and get some financial backing.
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Re: So, Gabe just got released...

Post by towney007 » Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:58 pm

Well I think it CAN be saved in terms of surviving, but this whole idea of it being what it was... just won't be the case.

This first thing i'd do would be to scale back the markets. Run Chicago, New York City, Philadelphia, Ohio and a lot of the original places they were heading to. Just stick with that. If they want to expand, then choose another venue.

Second, stop pay per view. It's obvious Gabe had no clue how to book it and it's pretty obvious that ROH doesn't know how to budget for it. Just stop the non-sense. Unless it's live, you can't do it.

Third, i'd stop the silly health insurance non-sense. No wrestling promotion in the world has it. If they go and get injured somewhere else, then they use your insurance.. you're basically paying for a worker's injuries somewhere else. Forget it. Done.

That being said, I start using two year contracts with garunteed money in them. They're only with my company for two years. Then there are year long company options after that. If the options are declined, then we begin to pay them by appearance again. If accepted, they get a 5% raise with a year extension. I save the contracts for my best acts. With the money they're paying in health insurance, travel costs, and all the other change they flushing down the toilet so they can blow the japanese establishment, i'd turn around and use on contracts. It's called 'risk management'. That way you know how long you have certain guys. None of this trapsing off to WWE whenever.

Also, I give WWE access to my talent for a fee of $50k. My talent can go try out or WWE can recruit them, but they have to pay me a fee. Simple as that.

Those are a few of the things i'd do I guess...
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Re: So, Gabe just got released...

Post by samostrong » Mon Nov 03, 2008 10:03 am

Just of the top of my head, that would have brought in:

Colt Cabana
Punker
Ace Steel
Paul London
Spanky (twice)
Claudio
Gibson

$400,000.

So yeah, big money. And if they were paying that for a try out, add Morishi and Dragon to the list.

That's half a mill right there.


Also - I didn't realise that ROH pay health insurance? I thought that was the reason Jimmy Rave left, becuase they didn't pay it?
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Re: So, Gabe just got released...

Post by towney007 » Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:25 pm

I'd reserve all those contracts for my top flight guys. Like Punk, like Homicide, Like Joe, Like Dragon, etc. It helps you insure that you're going to have continuity at least for a set period of time. If the WWE wants em, $50k to try out and then $25k to buy out our contract and put them on their payroll with a full waiver of any no-compete clause. It's peanuts to the WWE to do that.. That's what i'd have done at least...

So either way you get one of two things.... either an assload of money from the WWE or you get to keep your top talent and make your own money. What a novel concept...

For example, they could have turned around and signed Jerry Lynn or a bigger indy-tacular name to a $100k contract for four years. Now they've got the capital to go out and buy up some real names... Or split it up a bunch of different ways and swallow up a lot of up and comers.. or use it to re-sign the next wave of dudes you want to keep around...

These indy feds are such whiney losers... if you're going to have high turn over, then figure out a way to make money off of it...
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Re: So, Gabe just got released...

Post by blind » Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:45 pm

towney007 wrote:I'd reserve all those contracts for my top flight guys. Like Punk, like Homicide, Like Joe, Like Dragon, etc. It helps you insure that you're going to have continuity at least for a set period of time. If the WWE wants em, $50k to try out and then $25k to buy out our contract and put them on their payroll with a full waiver of any no-compete clause. It's peanuts to the WWE to do that.. That's what i'd have done at least...

So either way you get one of two things.... either an assload of money from the WWE or you get to keep your top talent and make your own money. What a novel concept...

For example, they could have turned around and signed Jerry Lynn or a bigger indy-tacular name to a $100k contract for four years. Now they've got the capital to go out and buy up some real names... Or split it up a bunch of different ways and swallow up a lot of up and comers.. or use it to re-sign the next wave of dudes you want to keep around...

These indy feds are such whiney losers... if you're going to have high turn over, then figure out a way to make money off of it...
You definitely need your avatar and sig back.

I'm going to agree, booking continuity was a good attraction - everything else was just taking chances and playing with what the fans might respond to. (the supposed emphasis on restoring tag team wrestling now is comparable to doing 6 man scrambles in 03-04 because clusterfucks were popular)

04-05 was definitely the climax of the company, with 06 and o7 being the years of expanding way too fast and running too many shows a month. Now it's too late to return to that formula..

Let's see which indy promotion steps up to snatch up the ROHbot fanbase though...

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Re: So, Gabe just got released...

Post by towney007 » Mon Nov 03, 2008 3:17 pm

I don't know if you guys have ever read the book 'Moneyball', but you should, because it talks about how baseball is beginning to fundamentally change. How scouts and organizations weren't competing because they frankly were inefficient at what they were doing. How people were going out and getting players because of what they HOPED they would be rather than what they ARE.

Ring of Honor's biggest problem is very similar. They get stuck up in all the wrestling bullsh!t. Like the fact that tag team wrestling is dead.... it's not dead because Vince killed it. It's dead because wrestlers killed it. You have a better shot of making good money as a high level mid card singles guy than you do a main event tag team dude. Period. Nothing more, nothing less. This whole idea that Sapolsky had in his noggin' about 'restoring' tag team wrestling was ludacris. This idea that wrestling is about 'competition' or is a 'sport' is all f-ing non sense that some douche who took his occupation entirely too seriously came up with and found out that there were enough douche fans that would buy into it and pay him to tell him they're right.

That's all Meltzer, Keller, ROH and the lot of them are. It's just dork justification. It's a bunch of nerds PAYING someone to tell them they're right. Literally.

Part of the whole concept of wrestling, like baseball, lends itself to mysticism, but in all reality, it's just a form of entertainment with truths and realities. Sapolskty and a lot of the ROH guys live in fantasy land. It's like having the dudes that show up to induction weekend at the hall of fame every year actually running baseball...
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Re: So, Gabe just got released...

Post by OneManX » Mon Nov 03, 2008 7:11 pm

So, are you saying the RoH tried booking itself like it was NOAH, or any other Japanese company, instead of booking itself like an Indy wrestling company wrestling in high school gyms...?
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Re: So, Gabe just got released...

Post by towney007 » Mon Nov 03, 2008 7:22 pm

MMM, not so much that they were BOOKING like they were NOAH-USA, but that they SPENT like they were NOAH USA... Basically imagine the cost of booking John Cena, Triple H and or the Undertaker, flying them over and then putting them up... PLUS their booking fee... that's essentially what they were doing with guys like Morishima, Misawa and Kobashi...

But in the end it wasn't even that... it was consistently bringing in Dragon Gate dudes, touring to Japan, touring to Europe, putting shows on the west coast when the company was CLEARLY not there yet. All that stuff costs money. Lots of money. Money they didn't have.

Same kind of crap ECW did. Bringing in bigger names. Booking in places like Florida. Then adding on the cost of doing TV when they didn't have the money to do it... all that crap.

You run in one place until you KNOW you can draw 2,000 in your sleep. ROH does that in two markets: Chicago and New York City. After that, you add on markets and cultivate and develop them until you know you can hit that 2,000 mark again. If you're not after two years of trying, pull out. They were expanding for the sake of expanding. Before you know it, they've got like... 10 markets that flat out 1.) Weren't drawing and 2.) Weren't growing.

Just a case of people pushing the envelope because they believe their own hype.
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Re: So, Gabe just got released...

Post by samostrong » Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:04 am

No offense to you Towney, but if it's that simple, why can't people "in the biz" figure that shit out?

When I make my millions I'm moving to the US to run an Indy fed with the Townmesiter!
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Re: So, Gabe just got released...

Post by OneManX » Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:06 am

Proof RoH is failing.

Age of Insanity
RoH World Title Match
Nigel McGuiness (c) vs El Generico

Toward the end of the match, the crowd is pretty hot, ya' know nearfall city. Generico has kicked out of all of Nigel's lariats, Generico hits the big Ole kick and Nigel falls back and hits the Jawbreaker Lariat... and they crowd doesn't pop...

You would NEVER see that in the WWE or TNA. The crowd reacts to the big time move. The crowd would never be like ho-hum after some Sweet Chin Music, FU, RKO, or even the Pedigree. The crowd goes nuts when Hardy hits the Swanton Bomb, and we have to see like a million replays of the Canadian Destroyer.

This is proof that RoH needs to go back to the old school thinking, in a RAW chat on Monday, I hop'd in and starting talking RoH, and Towney mentioned something in RoH, when a man hit the big move it was over. You dont kick out of the pepsi plunge, you dont kick out of the Cop Killah. And once Joe hit the Muscle Buster game set match, and that is where it is. The fans are so used to seeing this, that they've become spoiled.

They've got to see Dragon Gate wrestlers, Legends like Kobashi, Misawa, KENTA, and Marufuji for the price of a ticket that wouldn't even get you in the Nosebleeds in a WWE event. They have this elitist attitude that you have to impress them... I was watching a Shoot Interview with Jerry Lynn where the fans would almost look down on the wrestlers... Huh? NOBODY would look down on Hogan, Rock, or Austin, but Indy legends like Lynn are being treated like they're rooks, but in order for RoH to survive and to make, they've got to reprogram those ROHbots.
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Re: So, Gabe just got released...

Post by tiagolopes » Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:14 am

Can it be that instead of the attempt to revitalize tag-team wrestling, or the moving to other markets, or the bringing in of Japanese wrestler...or the 1001 reasons one might come up with...can it be that the reason ROH has lost steam and has been a presenting a quality of product far inferior to the one presented in 2004/5 is simply the far lesser talent of the roster has a whole?

The ground basis for ROH success was not Gabe, not the storylines, not the wrassling per se...was likely the gigantic talent of a foursome of Cide, Joe, Punk and Dragon. Look at the success these 4 have had in the past couple of years and you'd find it hard for any promotion not to do wonders with them...
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