The 2016 US Presidential Election

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GooberBM
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Re: The 2016 US Presidential Election

Post by GooberBM » Fri Nov 11, 2016 9:48 am

That and he's a 55 year old black man. He's had to deal with ignorant people his whole life. We're a generation of black people that have been much better off than the last generation, at large, with deal with bigotry. This is going to be a big test of under 40 black people, because we've never had to deal with what we're staring down, in a fully unleashed manner
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Re: The 2016 US Presidential Election

Post by Big slim » Fri Nov 11, 2016 9:54 am

True.
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Re: The 2016 US Presidential Election

Post by Big slim » Fri Nov 11, 2016 9:57 am

Plus all of the ominously threatening shit Omarosa has been saying has further shaken my faith in any good Trump can do.
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Re: The 2016 US Presidential Election

Post by Jama7301 » Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:52 am

I've never had to consider my last name of Castaneda before now. I have never had to consider how things may change once next summer rolla around, and I start tanning really easily in any sunlight. I've never had to consider if I'm white enough to fly under the radar.

I'm not concerned per se, it's just something I've never had to worry about in my life. That's been an insanely huge privilege ive had,only being half Mexican, living in the north, and taking more after my mother than my paternal genetic provider. I've just been been considering how things will continue to shake out in the coming months. I'll probably be fine, given geography and not looking overtly like a Mexican, bUT it's something I've had to think about for the first time.
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Re: The 2016 US Presidential Election

Post by El Canuck » Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:07 pm

What kind of a world are we building?

Also, submitted without further comment: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tobias-st ... 79774.html
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Re: The 2016 US Presidential Election

Post by El Canuck » Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:56 pm

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Re: The 2016 US Presidential Election

Post by eobversion1 » Fri Nov 11, 2016 1:23 pm

I agree with him on a lot of points. In hindsight he was right, the DNC hedged their bets with Clinton, we were under no illusions about the kind of candidate she was but hoped she would win out of pragmatism.

I will say he's wrong about one thing that in Britain the Tories pretty much keep to the left wing nature of the country. Fiscally they're pretty fond of slashing budgets but for the last few years, David Cameron was a better leader than anyone Labour had to offer.

UKIP are the party that stoke the racist rhetoric over there. Their former leader Nigel Farage, one of the most loathsome cunts on the planet referred to Obama as "subhuman" yesterday. I wonder what exactly it is about him that Mr. Farage finds to be "subhuman"

The polling said she would win and even though the DNC interfered, she got more votes than Bernie in the primaries. The only test was at the ballot and despite winning the popular vote, she failed. Ultimately, she wanted to live in a bubble of rarified air, paid speeches and donor dinners full of Bankers, Stock Traders, and other Metropolitan sophisticates was where she spent too much time. Her message to working class voters came off as shallow in the end it seems. She could have had Jesus Christ himself as a surrogate but in the end, they were voting for her.

Even though objectively Trump was a massive liar and had no real policy prescriptions outside of ones to encourage xenophobia he came off as more genuine. He was the epitome of what Colbert was talking about when he coined the term "truthiness". It doesn't matter if what he said was morally repugnant or untrue it felt real.

The reason Trump won is pretty much why more people prefer to see Michael Bay movies over arthouse titles. Nothing more to it than that.
Last edited by eobversion1 on Fri Nov 11, 2016 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The 2016 US Presidential Election

Post by GooberBM » Fri Nov 11, 2016 1:27 pm

Huh....

I always took your name as Italian. So...huh.

I didn't realize you were one of us.

*hugs Jama*

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Re: The 2016 US Presidential Election

Post by GooberBM » Fri Nov 11, 2016 1:32 pm

El Canuck wrote:What kind of a world are we building?

Also, submitted without further comment: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tobias-st ... 79774.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassina ... of_Austria

OBSCURE REFERENCES TO THE ARCHDUKE FERDINAND!!!!!!!!!!!! THOSE ARE MY SHIT!

Mostly because we got that drilled through our brains as the most instantly direct cause of the breakout of WW I
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Re: The 2016 US Presidential Election

Post by GooberBM » Fri Nov 11, 2016 1:54 pm

Also, yes that article is very spot on in seeing the historical trends. As for that video, the points he targets in there are accurate, but in his delivery, he's doing the same thing that he's blaming the left for. It really does go both ways: When is the last time anyone here has had a conversation with someone that thought ideologically different from them and had both sides come out of the conversation saying "I see your point, and I can understand why you feel that way, even if I don't agree with you?"

I'm a very reasonable person to have discourse with and I can understand why people who vote right-wing and believe in some of those principles do, even if I don't. But they have an echo chamber just like the left does, and devolves to name calling and shaming just as much as the left. Case in point, the hypocrisy of telling the left to "stop complaining and unite because Trump won", when they never for a second conceded to Obama. There was no compromise, there was only a staunch effort to destroy, which is finally succeeding.

So the ultimate call to action in there is what really is needed. The left doesn't fight dirty like the right does, so the left has to roll up their sleeves and work harder to succeed. And it hasn't in a long time. It really is time to dig and and get back to doing the fucking hard work
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Re: The 2016 US Presidential Election

Post by El Canuck » Fri Nov 11, 2016 2:52 pm

I agree so much with that, Goobs. That is precisely the problem, though, is the hypocrisy. That's what so many on the left wing side are having a hard time swallowing right now. After eight years of absolute obstructionism from elected Republicans, eight years of denial of even the slightest modicum of respect for anything Obama has done, with factual basis for said accomplishments, it feels almost self-defeating now to offer the right wing that which they would never once offer to the left wing. It was never on the table to reflect on their own failings, or to bridge the gap with the winning party. It was scorched earth from the minute Obama won, led by Trump himself who was bemoaning on Twitter about the electoral college, the same one he's now praising for having elected him.

When your opposition demands such fealty after victory and not only refuses to offer same in return, but spat upon your own offer of a handshake years ago, how do you now shake that hand? How do you trust them to not spit upon you even more now that they've won?
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Re: The 2016 US Presidential Election

Post by GooberBM » Fri Nov 11, 2016 3:11 pm

We have to be better than them. But we have to engage them in a different way than we have. We'll never win over the bigots and racists but they have tapped into the anger, frustration and fear of decent people. We have to reconnect with those people and show that we SHARE those same concerns, because we do. At the end of the day, we all just want a fair shot to succeed in life. But they have been convinced by the enemy that we are the problem. Just like in some ways we have been convinced they are too.

Neither side believes we're all in it together, never have really. The evil and darkness lives in that divide and it has widened the gap between the decent folk of both sides. And we have to find ways to close it and stop the us vs. them mentality. Or else we will end up falling into that destruction period we're staring down the abyss at
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Re: The 2016 US Presidential Election

Post by eobversion1 » Fri Nov 11, 2016 3:40 pm

That conversation was starting Goober. Moderate Republicans and Democrats were starting to find common ground in the face of Trump. Now it's back to square one.

Republicans will always offer their base a constant diet of dog whistles like Benghazi, Birtherism, George Soros, Anti-Welfare, Anti-Immigrant, Anti-Muslim and BLM rhetoric and the countless amounts of stories debunked by Snopes every day. They were accusing Hillary of witchcraft last week. It's a fact of life. You don't see that happening on the left. Sure a lot of narratives are manufactured at a convenient time by connecting dots that are always going to be there anyway but never blatant lies to the degree it happens on the right. The Republican approach to opposition simply doesn't allow for shades of grey. Some of it definitely does exist on the left with the hardcore Bernie or Bust crowd but that was a super small portion of the overall base of the Democratic Party.

I don't like the Koch brothers but I don't think they're bad people for looking out for their interests. Worthy of the strictest opposition and heavy sanctions for their role in polluting the environment? Definitely. But they're not evil people and that's what I think is missing from the discourse. There are reasonable people on both sides but the manufacturing of these echo chambers to keep your base together has to end.
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Re: The 2016 US Presidential Election

Post by GooberBM » Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:11 pm

http://www.rollcall.com/news/opinion/im ... al-america

This hits a lot of the overarching points I was trying to make from earlier, with a bit of unpacking the motivations of people sprinkled in
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Re: The 2016 US Presidential Election

Post by GooberBM » Sat Nov 12, 2016 7:22 am

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Re: The 2016 US Presidential Election

Post by eobversion1 » Sat Nov 12, 2016 7:28 am

Definitely, Pence is a slippery prick when it comes to just how much of a monster he is. He puts a nice face on it but his track record says otherwise.
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Re: The 2016 US Presidential Election

Post by El Canuck » Sat Nov 12, 2016 10:47 am

That was an excellent piece from Roll Call, Goober. I agree with it wholeheartedly. As a rural born and bred guy myself, who later moved to Windsor, Ontario, which pretty much put me in a central location on the continent, and who then returned home, I definitely see where the writer is coming from and agree with him.
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Re: The 2016 US Presidential Election

Post by GooberBM » Sat Nov 12, 2016 11:22 am

I watched Bill Maher's show last night and they had a guy who is a self-described "liberal redneck" on the show, who gave good anecdotal evidence to the same thing happening from the left. Liberals have little to no sense of what the average rural American lives, on a day-to-day basis either. Putting aside the racial/sexist overtones of his rhetoric the reason why Donald Trump, a man who has nothing in common with rural America, won their votes was because he spoke TO them.

Liberals pushing a progressive, inclusive of minorities agenda are on the right side of history. But that message is becoming increasingly less inclusive of that section of America. Liberals treated rural white Americans like they were a minority, and the GOP got them to come out and vote like one. For better or worse for America.
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Re: The 2016 US Presidential Election

Post by eobversion1 » Sat Nov 12, 2016 11:59 am

I watched it too I don't think it requires an adjustment as big as you say, Goober.

Hillary had Bernie, Barack Obama, Bill Clinton, and Joe Biden out there stumping for her people with a track record of reaching working class voters. Only, problem, was they weren't voting for them they were voting for Hillary. A woman who sexism aside had a lot of baggage and ties to Wall Street and the Donor class who was encumbered by the KGB and FBI with constant drips about emails and the Clinton Foundation. Turnout was wretched where it counted. Not to mention that Democrats had the White House for the previous 8 years.

Obama and Bill Clinton were fresh faces on the national political scene when they did run for President which gave them momentum. It gave them that Campbellian arc that resonates with so many people.

There are people like Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren with the legitimacy to bring the fight to Trump and to reorientate the working class message and pull their head out of the swirl of boutique issues. If I were them I would have Obama, Bill Clinton, Warren and Sanders groom someone to come out of nowhere to challenge Trump in that authentic way that people crave.

How about Ana Marie Cox calling Trump a Nazi huh? The next few years will be interesting, to say the least. He's bitten off what he wants. Can he chew it?
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Re: The 2016 US Presidential Election

Post by GooberBM » Sat Nov 12, 2016 12:13 pm

To win elections, no it doesn't take much.

To change the way people think, enough that they are less susceptible to the brainwashing that won them over? Yes, it is necessary because one doesn't have to be done at the expense of the other. But to bring the "boutique" issues together with the "working class" issues, is going to take actual real work and not just lip service. Even Obama failed at balancing the two, which is why so many liberals on all sides were exasperated with him.

It's not just about voting a liberal as President, or winning back seats of Congress. It really goes down to the state and local level where the right-wing agenda has gutted things out because liberals have been bringing knives to a gunfight. There needs to be a full-on recalibration of how liberals interact with the people and how they disseminate their message, both with people that disagree and within it's own ranks. And they need to LISTEN to people as well. That, very clearly, turned out to be a big problem in 2016
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