The last match you watched chain.

Discuss anything about the WWF/WWE past or present.
User avatar
isrs4life
Hall Of Famer
Posts: 17092
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:41 pm
Location: Freddy Beach

Re: The last match you watched chain.

Post by isrs4life » Sun Oct 04, 2015 4:05 pm

WWE Bad Blood 1997
!st Ever Hell in a Cell match
Shawn Micheals vs. The Undertaker
^It's been a while since I watched it last and it was just as good
or I had the patients to watch it last night I had fun.

WWE Armageddon 2005
Hell in a Cell Match
The Undertaker vs. Randy Orton
^Man looking back at Orton he sure has changed his looks he must
of been about 25 back then but he did some rko's from out of nowhere
in this match Undertaker won and it was fun watching it.

I saw these matches from the Hell in a Cell Anthology dvd set.
Image

User avatar
Big slim
Hall Of Famer
Posts: 20885
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:56 pm
Twitter: Jamel727
Location: Mesa, Arizona

Re: The last match you watched chain.

Post by Big slim » Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:31 pm

Just started the Rey Mysterio dvd set "The Life of a Masked Man". Right now we're at the early part of his time in ECW, the match I'm watching now is him vs Juvetued Guerrera from 1996. Man, Rey Rey needed a sandwich back then, dude was mad skinny!!
Image


Jamel Watson (Big slim) - Executive Vice President of Talent Relations

Check out my new blog, Macho Mars at www.machomars.blog!

User avatar
Big slim
Hall Of Famer
Posts: 20885
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:56 pm
Twitter: Jamel727
Location: Mesa, Arizona

Re: The last match you watched chain.

Post by Big slim » Tue Oct 13, 2015 7:03 pm

The match between Juvi and Rey was pretty entertaining. Its odd to see Rey attack someone after a match and put them through a table. Early Rey is a thing to see, especially looking at what moves dude did. Yeah, it is no wonder that his knees and body went to shit. His style was good, but not quite as refined as we saw in his time in WCW and later in WWE.

Next up, some Rey in WCW, starting off with another match with Juvi.
Image


Jamel Watson (Big slim) - Executive Vice President of Talent Relations

Check out my new blog, Macho Mars at www.machomars.blog!

User avatar
Big slim
Hall Of Famer
Posts: 20885
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:56 pm
Twitter: Jamel727
Location: Mesa, Arizona

Re: The last match you watched chain.

Post by Big slim » Fri Oct 16, 2015 3:57 pm

Still working my way through the Mysterious dvd set, now on disc 2. Just finished Rey and Jericho's match from Judgement Day 2009, its amazing how much chemistry these two have, even dating back to their early days at WCW. As good and enjoyable as this match was and as solid as the pairing of Y2J and Mysterio is, this is probably the weakest from their great trilogy from ths spring of that year. Their Mask vs Title match from The Bash and their match from Extreme Rules were both ahead of this of, but that only speaks to how good these two were together and the quality of all 3 matches.
Image


Jamel Watson (Big slim) - Executive Vice President of Talent Relations

Check out my new blog, Macho Mars at www.machomars.blog!

User avatar
isrs4life
Hall Of Famer
Posts: 17092
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:41 pm
Location: Freddy Beach

Re: The last match you watched chain.

Post by isrs4life » Sun Oct 25, 2015 2:27 pm

WWE Hell in a Cell 2010
WHC Match
Kane vs. The Undertaker
^Last time I saw this was on classics on demand aka 247 on demand but it was
better then I first thought it was Kane looked so dominate in the match which
he won.
Image

User avatar
Red_And_Yellow
VIP Member
Posts: 7807
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: The last match you watched chain.

Post by Red_And_Yellow » Wed Nov 11, 2015 8:58 am

Stone Cold Steve Austin vs. Bret Hart - Survivor Series 1996

I've been following along with a radio show on the Wrestling Observer website that is following the product from 19 years ago for whatever week it is currently. This week was the November 11, 1996 RAW and Nitro, and I'm watching Survivor Series as well just to get the full feel of everything from week to week since it was the Sunday after those shows. To start, it's really weird to watch a character like Stone Cold Steve Austin come up through the ranks, and earlier on the show seeing teams like The Godwins (with PIG and HOG), "Jailbird" Crush, The Executioner (which was Terry Gordy, imagine getting Terry Gordy and dressing him in that outfit and giving him a toy axe) and "The Stalker" Barry Windham (which again, why?) who was a stalker but a babyface, ermmmm what?

First, the opening promo package was awesome and really built Austin up as a star, and really that's the whole point of this segment and match. To have Austin lose but look awesome the entire time. After Austin's promo package airs, he has an interview with radio hack Todd Pettengill, who excitedly talks about Bret Hart and how Austin has a title shot if he wins, here's what Austin said:

"And you think I'm supposed to be intimidated by the way you build him up and talk about stipulations, don't you? Just don't even say a word [Todd]. Everybody talks about "the best there is, the best there was" all the other crap, The Excellence of Execution, Bret, cliches are cliches, and an ass whippin' is an ass whippin', and that's exactly what you're going to get tonight at the hands of Stone Cold Steve Austin. And that's the bottom line!"

Like I really wished I wasn't 8 when Stone Cold was on the way up and could've appreciated his rise that much more. Bret knows the type of fight he's getting into with Austin and is basically just saying that he loves that he's at MSG for this fight and that after it's all said and done, Austin will have no choice but to respect him. Again, another awesome promo and the build for this match on RAW the weeks prior was legitimately great.

On commentary at the start of the match, Jim Ross is talking about how neither guy has ever quit in their careers, and that he thinks the match is going to come down to submissions, which is an excellent prelude in explaining what is going on here, and how humiliating it would be for either to give up. Bret wants to get into your standard wrestling match and Austin obliges because he wants to prove he's better than Bret, but Bret gets the upper hand. While Bret is controlling a wrist lock though, Austin gets Bret against the ropes and sends him to the other side, picks him up and gives him a flapjack onto the top rope (or as they dubbed it a "Stun Gun").

Austin turns the match into a brawl from here and is being very methodical while working over the throat following that Stun Gun. They're putting over just how tough Austin is on commentary. He's fighting Vader on RAW the next night, so he's fighting Bret Hart and Vader in back to back nights, that sounds like a tough guy, good sell! After a brief trading punches spot that Bret loses, Bret gets the upper hand again and starts going through his comeback but when he goes for the bulldog, Austin counters and pushes Bret sternum first into the corner. Stone Cold goes for a superplex which is being dubbed as Bret's move and when Bret counters, Ross puts over how that was out of Austin's repertoire. But every time Bret gets the upper hand, Austin finds a way to get back on top of the action.

Austin is now working over Bret's back because Bret tumbled to the outside and favored his back. Austin rams him into the ring post and Ross puts over how smart Austin is for working over Bret's back when it's weakened. Bret gets the upper hand and they brawl in the crowd a little bit and knock over one of the barricades after Bret throws Austin into it. Bret rolls Austin back into the ring but even when Bret has the upper hand, the emphasis is on making Austin look smart, he rolls all the way to the other side of the ring back outside, (1) buying himself some more time and (2) forcing Bret to go get him. This eventually leads to Austin throwing Bret over the Spanish Announce Table, which leads Ross to say "Why does it always happen to the Spanish guys?!"

The story is basically now that Austin wants to turn this into a brawl, take this all over MSG, and Bret wants to win the match in the ring and wants to have a wrestling match. It's a fascinating duel between these two at this point. Despite all this physicality and Austin almost getting disqualified for pushing the ref, Bret gets the upper hand again and Ross is putting over how Bret just doesn't want to quit and is going to fight to prove he's the best. Bret eventually hits Austin with the Stun Gun that Austin caught him earlier in the match and almost cradled him for 3. Bret goes to the top but Austin recovers and Bret is getting pummeled by fists and chops. Austin once again goes for the superplex, and this time connects with it.

Bret got to his feet before Austin did and when he goes to attack Austin from behind, Austin hits him with a stunner, but Bret rolls close to the ropes. Austin pulls Bret away from the ropes and goes for the cover, 1.....2....KICKOUT. Austin is inconsolable, he thought that was it but maybe he should've just went for the cover regardless how close Bret was to the ropes. Austin keeps going for covers and Bret keeps kicking out at 2. Austin eventually gathers himself and puts Bret in the Texas Cloverleaf submission hold. But Bret makes his way to the ropes and Austin lets go on 4.9 to avoid the DQ. Austin picks Bret up and sends Bret into the corner, and Bret slides on the mat to the post, and eventually goes for a bow and arrow submission. Ross is saying how bad Austin wants Bret to quit in MSG, but Bret counters and goes for the Sharpshooter, but Austin gets to the ropes.

Bret gets Austin in a sleeper and Austin is trying to desperately escape, he first rams him into the corner but that didn't stop Bret. Austin hits a jawbreaker and slaps himself to gather himself again after being in a sleeper for some time. Austin sets up for the Million Dollar Dream that he learned from DiBiase. Austin locks in the Million Dollar Dream and Bret is walking all over the middle of the ring trying to think of an escape. Bret goes to one of the corners, kicks off of it, rolls over Austin, who still has the Million Dollar Dream on, for the 1....2.....3.

Austin didn't let go of the Million Dollar Dream and it cost him the win. In the post-match, Bret lays on the mat exhausted from the fight he was just in, and Austin refuses to take his eyes off of Bret as Austin walks to the back. They put over that isn't the last time we'll see these guys square off and that this rivalry is only beginning.

Summary -

What really amazes me about this in hindsight is how it is so different in presentation from commentary and how the wrestling action itself exists in today's WWE. These guys went out there with two different goals on how to wrestle and two different ideals for how the match should go, and it was awesome. You had commentary that explained every moment of a big match like it was important. It was something that emphasized the in ring action and how important each movement was for both Austin and Hart. The wrestling is what got over Stone Cold as a legitimate star and made him into a huge deal, but Bret was just slightly smarter and executed that little bit better than Austin. It just shows how important wrestling actually is to the total package and how a great program with a great match can lead to both guys looking great when all is said and done. Maybe wins and losses aren't the most important thing, but good wrestling is still incredibly important in the grand scheme of things when talking about a wrestling feud or match.

Personally speaking, this match is probably better than the WM 13 match. When I come back to that in March as I go on this journey, I'll update you all to see if I still feel that way. This match has everything.
Image

BAZED SASHA. CRY IZZY.

User avatar
Big slim
Hall Of Famer
Posts: 20885
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:56 pm
Twitter: Jamel727
Location: Mesa, Arizona

Re: The last match you watched chain.

Post by Big slim » Wed Nov 11, 2015 11:45 am

That is a bold statement Red. Austin vs Bret at WM 13 is easily one of the top 5 Mania matches ever, I will have to take a look at their Survivor Series match personally to judge for myself, your review of it definitely got me interested in watching.

I think I was 5 when Austin was on the rise, and yeah, I really wish I was older and could've seen it and appreciate it. I guess that's why I am such a big Cena fan, because I basically followed his entire run to the top.
Image


Jamel Watson (Big slim) - Executive Vice President of Talent Relations

Check out my new blog, Macho Mars at www.machomars.blog!

User avatar
Red_And_Yellow
VIP Member
Posts: 7807
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: The last match you watched chain.

Post by Red_And_Yellow » Wed Nov 11, 2015 1:14 pm

Austin/Bret at Mania 13 certainly has more mystique and is incredibly well worked given they did the double turn and it established Austin. Tbh, that match is close and is certainly more memorable given how it ended, but iirc, the work from bell to bell was better here.
Image

BAZED SASHA. CRY IZZY.

User avatar
isrs4life
Hall Of Famer
Posts: 17092
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:41 pm
Location: Freddy Beach

Re: The last match you watched chain.

Post by isrs4life » Fri Nov 13, 2015 5:21 pm

Red_And_Yellow wrote:Austin/Bret at Mania 13 certainly has more mystique and is incredibly well worked given they did the double turn and it established Austin. Tbh, that match is close and is certainly more memorable given how it ended, but iirc, the work from bell to bell was better here.
They also had a match from Revenge of the taker 97 which was good also.
Which i've seen before
Image

stigsyv1
Hall Of Famer
Posts: 4181
Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:07 am
Location: Skegness

Re: The last match you watched chain.

Post by stigsyv1 » Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:34 pm

Last year's survivor series main event. For a moment I thought this was the trigger being pulled on ziggler and his main event career but it fizzled out after a few weeks
Image

User avatar
isrs4life
Hall Of Famer
Posts: 17092
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:41 pm
Location: Freddy Beach

Re: The last match you watched chain.

Post by isrs4life » Fri Nov 27, 2015 2:42 pm

WWE Hell in a Cell 2015
Rematch Hell in a cell
Brock Lesnar vs. The Undertaker
^It was a good match both men got busted open and there was a doctor envolved
and they did there respective finishers twice in the match but the first cell between
the two is much better all it was was a finisher bash match. Oh and taker never
did the last ride which sucked.
Image

User avatar
Jama7301
Hall Of Famer
Posts: 13645
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:35 pm
Twitter: Jama7301
Location: Minnesota

Re: The last match you watched chain.

Post by Jama7301 » Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:57 pm

Flair vs Ron Garvin for the NWA World Heavyweight Championship from a late December edition of NWA TV in 1985. That match was a fucking riot.
Image

User avatar
El Canuck
Hall Of Famer
Posts: 64994
Joined: Fri May 27, 2011 9:15 am
Contact:

Re: The last match you watched chain.

Post by El Canuck » Sun Nov 29, 2015 3:08 pm

Good ol' "Rugged" Ron. Great wrestler, great opponent for Flair, odd choice for NWA champion.
Image

As of April 1st, 2016,the first entry in my Gold & Steel fantasy series, As Fierce as Steel, is on sale. Visit www.thegoldandsteelsaga.com for more!

User avatar
AndyF1069
Hall Of Famer
Posts: 8522
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:18 am
Twitter: AndyF1069
Location: Liverpool

Re: The last match you watched chain.

Post by AndyF1069 » Mon Nov 30, 2015 9:47 am

Watching the first ever WWE draft from 2002. Some pretty interesting match ups such as an opening of Tazz vs Mr Perfect and a tag of DDP and Edge vs Christian and Booker T. Upcoming main event is Triple H vs Jericho vs Stephanie McMahon for the WWE title. . Some of the backstage segments are a ton of fun. Kurt Angle freaking out at not being Vince's first pick. Flair's first pick was Undertaker and Vince is panicking, thinking he'll take the nWo. Kurt begs, pleads and convinces Vince that he should be the next pick and that Flair will never take the nWo. Vince picks Kurt, Kurt is overjoyed and celebrates. 10 seconds later Flair picks the nWo. Vince proceeds to pull a Vince and yell his brains out at Kurt.

The formula is the same then as it today, but nothing feels forced. Nobody seems to be memorizing a script, the commentators aren't yelling at each other and there aren't dozens of replays to sit through. It makes me wonder if a modern show with two hours would be better, or if it would still be plagued by the problems I just mentioned and would a three hour version of raw in 2002 be enjoyable to watch or not if it was every week.
"My favourite spot is the one where I would pick him up for an aeroplane spin and rotate as many times as possible. He’d be so dizzy that he would try to pin the referee, and I’d count to three and he’d think that he won - Daniel Bryan

User avatar
AndyF1069
Hall Of Famer
Posts: 8522
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:18 am
Twitter: AndyF1069
Location: Liverpool

Re: The last match you watched chain.

Post by AndyF1069 » Mon Nov 30, 2015 10:07 am

Obviously it was done for shock effect, but there's still things that make no sense happening. Why were the nWo able to be drafted as a collective unit but Bubba and Devon can't be drafted as a team and end up on separate shows?
"My favourite spot is the one where I would pick him up for an aeroplane spin and rotate as many times as possible. He’d be so dizzy that he would try to pin the referee, and I’d count to three and he’d think that he won - Daniel Bryan

User avatar
GooberBM
VIP Member
Posts: 36862
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:57 pm

Re: The last match you watched chain.

Post by GooberBM » Mon Nov 30, 2015 10:36 am

See that's the biggest thing really. It's not that the forumla WWE has always used changed, it's that people's willingness to suspend their disbelief has gone WAY down. That's the big change
Image

Brandon Morrison - Chief of Staff and Forum Attaché to the Grand Chancellor

User avatar
Red_And_Yellow
VIP Member
Posts: 7807
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: The last match you watched chain.

Post by Red_And_Yellow » Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:03 am

GooberBM wrote:See that's the biggest thing really. It's not that the forumla WWE has always used changed, it's that people's willingness to suspend their disbelief has gone WAY down. That's the big change
I do think WWE is partly at fault for this though. They don't need to treat wrestling like it is the sport of all sports like it was treated in the kayfabe days. But there is a sense watching the show that they really don't treat what their wrestlers do seriously enough, and I think that does have an effect on how much people are willing to suspend their disbelief.

Now, with the Internet and reporters like Meltzer, Johnson, Apter, etc., comes fans who have more knowledge on the business and its intricacies than ever. But it's like that with everything in the entertainment field too. But the access to inside information and WWE's creative plans certainly has an effect on people's willingness to suspend their disbelief as well.

But I think we've seen in stories that tug at people's hearts the most, like Daniel Bryan's WWE Title chase post-Rumble in 2014, Ambrose/Rollins from earlier in the year, will get people to suspend their disbelief. When things are good, I think a lot of people, regardless of their knowledge, are willing to come along for the ride. Problem is when those moments don't exist, the show is perceived much worse than it probably was before.
Image

BAZED SASHA. CRY IZZY.

User avatar
El Canuck
Hall Of Famer
Posts: 64994
Joined: Fri May 27, 2011 9:15 am
Contact:

Re: The last match you watched chain.

Post by El Canuck » Mon Nov 30, 2015 12:51 pm

GooberBM wrote:See that's the biggest thing really. It's not that the forumla WWE has always used changed, it's that people's willingness to suspend their disbelief has gone WAY down. That's the big change
But Goobs, Andy did point out how the WWE formula has changed:
AndyF1069 wrote: The formula is the same then as it today, but nothing feels forced. Nobody seems to be memorizing a script, the commentators aren't yelling at each other and there aren't dozens of replays to sit through. It makes me wonder if a modern show with two hours would be better, or if it would still be plagued by the problems I just mentioned and would a three hour version of raw in 2002 be enjoyable to watch or not if it was every week.
Andy himself watched that episode of Raw, he didn't put it and last week's Raw before a panel of fans and rate their experience on it. He gave his own views on how he enjoyed watching an episode from thirteen years ago and how he compared it to today's product. The ability of the general audience to suspend disbelief has no bearing on Andy's enjoyment of the older episode compared to new ones.

Red is right to say that WWE is at fault here, because they are. WWE, just like any other scripted show/movie are the ones trying to entertain an audience. They're trying to earn our viewership week after week and maintain it by presenting a product that entertains us. We're not under any obligation to automatically buy into the product and support it blindly regardless of quality. You're just giving the WWE the leeway to do whatever they want then blaming yourself for not believing in it hard enough.

When my book debuts in April I know full well that if people don't like my book and say it's boring or badly written, it's my fault as the author, not the reader's fault. I'm trying to create a product that endears to readers, it's up to me to do that. It's not on them to blindly support my book regardless of what's on the paper. The same goes for WWE.

When That 70's Show, my favourite sitcom show, started losing viewers in season 7 and announced season 8 as the last season, I didn't blame myself and the other viewers, it was on the writers (and to a far lesser extent the cast, because Topher Grace and Ashton Kutcher wanted out) because the show was no longer as good. The jokes weren't hitting, the storylines were feeling more hokey and it felt like the whole thing was on cruise control, with no heart in it anymore from the creative side of things. Even the acting from the regular cast got wooden at points and you could tell that they weren't into some of the bits they were doing.

If Game of Thrones put out season 6 right now and it was written solely by whomever came up with all those Sandsnake scenes (that are all show only, btw, none of that crap the Sandsnakes get on with in season 5 was in the books) and it was terrible dialogue phoned in by actors that know it's terrible, no viewer is going to turn around on Twitter or Reddit and start yelling at the other viewers for not believing in the show. They're going to say "Who wrote this crap?"

The point is, if an entertainment entity stops being entertaining, it's up to them to fix that, it's not the viewers/listeners/readers responsibility to try extra hard to believe in it. That goes for products I once enjoyed but no longer do (WWE), products I enjoy that may or may not still run (That 70's Show, ASoIaF) and even my expectations of the material that I am trying to put out there (Gold & Steel).
Image

As of April 1st, 2016,the first entry in my Gold & Steel fantasy series, As Fierce as Steel, is on sale. Visit www.thegoldandsteelsaga.com for more!

User avatar
GooberBM
VIP Member
Posts: 36862
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:57 pm

Re: The last match you watched chain.

Post by GooberBM » Mon Nov 30, 2015 1:00 pm

The formula hasn't changed. The actual structure hasn't changed. I'm not even going to highlight the part where even Andy states the formula hasn't changed because that would be sophomoric of me. What has changed is the tactics they use within the formula. There have been some improvements in that area, with people like The New Day earning more rope to be improvisational and with people like Byron Saxton getting called up to Raw and JBL being less of a screaming maniac over the last 6 months.

But this past generation was a lost generation in terms of those skills. The higher indies aren't teaching promotions, where people would learn how to do these things, so that when people got hired by WWE they couldn't just do them like in other eras. If you weren't a superlative talent you simply couldn't do these things. The PC and NXT is turning WWE into a full-stop promotion, like in Japan, where you grow from the dojo to the main roster, learning the skills you need to be a true performer and not just a wrestler. If you can't be a performer, they are flushing you right out. Sami Callahan/Solomon Crowe is a fine example. He's a perfectly competent wrestler but he showed no signs of growing as an actual performer and he's gone. Or Tyler Breeze who scratched and clawed to hang in developmental until he finally figured out how to craft a real character and now he's on Raw.

You need all the pieces to get where we want them to go, and we're seeing many more of those pieces coming together at the same time. Now it's just a matter of consistently drawing it out of everyone across the board
Image

Brandon Morrison - Chief of Staff and Forum Attaché to the Grand Chancellor

User avatar
AndyF1069
Hall Of Famer
Posts: 8522
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:18 am
Twitter: AndyF1069
Location: Liverpool

Re: The last match you watched chain.

Post by AndyF1069 » Mon Nov 30, 2015 1:03 pm

I actually said that the formula hadn't changed. The way it is executed is different, but the rough outline of getting from point X (start) to point Z (end) with all of the filler (Y) is essentially untouched. I don't know if the problem right now is the scripted promos, I don't know if it's the different presentation methods, if it's the different players or if it's the increased time. But the show right now isn't as entertaining as it was years ago.

But I can also counter my own points I raised, because all or most of them were present in the following scenarios. Two years ago when Daniel Bryan was having his rise, the show was good. Three years ago when CM Punk was ruling the world, the show was good. Four years ago when Triple H was first debuted as an authority figure and we had all of the realism angles such as unhappy workers walking out and Miz/Truth running wild, the show was good. Five years ago when the Nexus debuted, the show was good.

I genuinely don't understand how they've gotten to this point that they are at when the general formula of xyz is still the same.
"My favourite spot is the one where I would pick him up for an aeroplane spin and rotate as many times as possible. He’d be so dizzy that he would try to pin the referee, and I’d count to three and he’d think that he won - Daniel Bryan

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests