Orton is a horrible face. Why is he so over?

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El Canuck
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Re: Orton is a horrible face. Why is he so over?

Post by El Canuck » Fri May 27, 2011 5:28 pm

GooberBM wrote:
El Canuck wrote:No, Austin continued to be an Anti-Hero by pure definition of the word, WWE just continued to push a lot more anti-heroes all at once, as in the examples you listed. Austin was the leader of this trend. Despite WWE shifting gears, the "moral compass" never shifts, good is always good, evil is always evil. I stand by my statement.
The Austin Era was a perversion (to cause to turn aside or away from what is generally done or accepted) of the Hero Structure of the Hogan Era, not because Austin was less of a hero than Hogan, but because of who his actions were cast upon. Case in point, both guys would strive to keep the villain from reaching the Holy Grail, even at the cost of themselves.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Austin has anti-hero tendencies, sure. But so does Superman when he's facing Darkseid. At the end of the day though, Austin, like Hogan before and Cena now, is much more Superman than Punisher
There's little examples like that to argue for either side, but when you look at the bulk of Steve Austin's "Stone Cold" character it was a "I do what I want, when I want" personaility that if felt so inclined, might help out a hero character, but was also not opposed to just doing his own thing and kicking ass on his terms, much like the Punisher. WWE pushed many more during this time frame in a similar manner, but Austin was at the top of the pack and only DX were comparably over as Anti-Heroes.

Hogan until his heel turn and Cena are "To the rescue" Superhero types who fight for justice and save the day, and as I said before, Orton's being pushed as a "I do what I want, when I want" Anti-hero, much the same as Austin.
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Re: Orton is a horrible face. Why is he so over?

Post by Omegabyss » Fri May 27, 2011 7:28 pm

Sure, Austin may have been an anti-hero. But he quickly developed into a stone cold babyface. Pandering to the fans, doing what is right, and saving Mr. McMahon's daughter. It's not about this "I do what I when I want" BS. Stone Cold just reverted to being another Hart, Hogan, and Cena.

Austin came to the rescue to Mankind as Goober pointed out
Austin came to the rescue of Stephanie as I pointed out.
Austin came to the rescue to help VINCE MCMAHON attain the WWE Championship from his rival HHH.

Yeah, Cena has done stuff like that as did Hogan. Just sayin'. Austin wasn't an anti-hero forever and neither is Orton.

None was more apparent until Orton decided to not kick Christian with the punt at Over the Limit.
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Re: Orton is a horrible face. Why is he so over?

Post by El Canuck » Fri May 27, 2011 9:44 pm

Never said forever...I said the bulk of his character, bulk does not = entire, bulk = majority. So the BS is yours.
Just as he came to the rescue from time to time he also DIDN'T come to the rescue at times or done things that the other major faces that have been mentioned would not have done without turning heel in most cases. You can sit here and nit pick and list these few little tidbits as damning towards his role as an anti-hero as a whole, but that doesn't make that true, just your opinion that an Anti-hero cannot stray from anti-heroic tendancies for even a second if he wants to maintain his image as an anti-hero. Regardless, the big picture has been missed by some, and that's the WWE's slow transformation of Randy Orton into their new Stone Cold, not identically, but with the same intended result, just as they transformed John Cena from a belt spinning, rapping heel into the new all American Hulk Hogan style hero.

In Wrestling, no one character is going to be a spotlessly perfect definition of any one character type, there's just too much room for human error between the writers and the wrestler, you Smarkies will always be able to nitpick over this little detail or that, but the basic outline of Stone Cold is being reused to create a new version of him, and that's Randy Orton.
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Re: Orton is a horrible face. Why is he so over?

Post by OneManX » Sat May 28, 2011 3:35 am

I dont see how he can be the anti hero when the people he went against were the villians, he was a bad ass, but he was basically the moral authority of the WWF.
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Re: Orton is a horrible face. Why is he so over?

Post by Greg_McNeish » Sat May 28, 2011 4:41 am

OneManX wrote:I dont see how he can be the anti hero when the people he went against were the villians, he was a bad @$$, but he was basically the moral authority of the WWF.
Who he fights isn't what decides the hero vs. anti-hero seperation; it's the second part that hits it. An anti-hero is a character that follows a moral code (which is distinguishes them from villians), but whose moral code is different than that of the society around them. Anti-villians also have a moral code, but it's not reconcilable with the moral code of society. A hero, of course, is someone whose personal moral code coincides with that of society.

The moment that Steve Austin's moral code (personal freedom, in a true libertarian way) became the norm throughout the WWF, he stopped being an anti-hero, and started being a hero. You won't find a cleaner dividing line than WM14, although the argument could be made that it wasn't until DX were established as babyfaces. Other than his heel turn at WM17 (obviously), Austin's moral code remained the societal standard until well into Cena's reigns on RAW. I'd say that THAT transition began at One Night Stand 2006, and lasted until about WM24 (when they ran their last true liberty vs. oppression storyline, with Maria & Santino).



Bringing things back to Randy Orton, he stopped being an anti-hero the moment that he adopted the prevailing moral code. Although a specific date is difficult to pinpoint, it would have been somewhere between Money in the Bank & Hell in a Cell, of 2010. Prior to MITB, he was still in the mode of doing things just because he could (which is fairly Austin-libertarian), and after Hell in a Cell, he was involved in the Cena-Nexus angle, sharing the societal moral code that Cena shouldn't give Wade Barrett the title unless he earns it.

From that point forward, Randy Orton has been a hero, in his contemporary universe. I won't debate that a lot of his initial appeal as a babyface came as a reflection of his Austin-era morality & characterizations, but that ship set sail at least 7 months ago, and as much as 10.
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Re: Orton is a horrible face. Why is he so over?

Post by candyxwrapper » Sat May 28, 2011 8:04 am

El Canuck wrote: As for Masters, when I used to take part in discussion forums around the time he started out there was nothing but disdain for him, he was getting a big push, he was a mediocre heel and everyone thought he was just another muscle head that Vince as we all know, loves to death. Now, upon his return and subsequent shrinkage, you all seem to love him, and I can't help but think it's due to his lack of push. It's eerily similar to that lame Hipster movement going around where they hate everything and everyone mainstream but love everything underground, regardless of quality. By Masters appearing on C shows without his roids he's beloved, pushed on A shows in his jacked up form, despised.
I know for me I have always liked Masters jacked up or not. I do think he looks alot better now than he did with all the muscles. I always thought his skills were good but I think with the slimming down he moves alot better in the ring. I really don't know how much hate the man got but Chris Masters is/was awesome to me.
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Re: Orton is a horrible face. Why is he so over?

Post by El Canuck » Sat May 28, 2011 10:21 am

candyxwrapper wrote:
El Canuck wrote: As for Masters, when I used to take part in discussion forums around the time he started out there was nothing but disdain for him, he was getting a big push, he was a mediocre heel and everyone thought he was just another muscle head that Vince as we all know, loves to death. Now, upon his return and subsequent shrinkage, you all seem to love him, and I can't help but think it's due to his lack of push. It's eerily similar to that lame Hipster movement going around where they hate everything and everyone mainstream but love everything underground, regardless of quality. By Masters appearing on C shows without his roids he's beloved, pushed on A shows in his jacked up form, despised.
I know for me I have always liked Masters jacked up or not. I do think he looks alot better now than he did with all the muscles. I always thought his skills were good but I think with the slimming down he moves alot better in the ring. I really don't know how much hate the man got but Chris Masters is/was awesome to me.
I'll agree that he moves like a gazelle now compared to how he used to move. Steroids are overrated, what they give in size they take away in mobility (not to mention the plethora of side effects that come with them.) Just look at Dynamite Kid, his best matches came before he got super juiced up, back when he could really move.
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Re: Orton is a horrible face. Why is he so over?

Post by GooberBM » Sat May 28, 2011 10:30 am

El Canuck wrote:
candyxwrapper wrote:I'll agree that he moves like a gazelle now compared to how he used to move. Steroids are overrated, what they give in size they take away in mobility (not to mention the plethora of side effects that come with them.) Just look at Dynamite Kid, his best matches came before he got super juiced up, back when he could really move.
I don't mean any offense by this, I'm just genuinely curious because I've never been on another forum other an WV, but from the style and content of your posts I get the impression you posted on other formus. Am I right, and if so would you mind telling me where you used to go?
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Re: Orton is a horrible face. Why is he so over?

Post by El Canuck » Sat May 28, 2011 11:33 am

No offense at all, I used to frequent Steve's World of Wrestling forum way back when that site still existed, that was my regular forum hangout, I also appeared on a tape trader forum called Bif Everchad's, there were a handful of others back when Geocities and Bravenet were popular forum hosts, but those were my main two. Then I broke in to the business and lost touch with the forums, now I'm retired, and I check the site every day for news, so I thought I'd check out it's forum, see if any of the SWoW crew migrated here, see what the Smarkies were into these days, talk some wrestling, that sort of stuff.
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Re: Orton is a horrible face. Why is he so over?

Post by Supro » Sun May 29, 2011 7:46 pm

I think Orton pigeonholed himself. No matter how heelish he can be, the crowd will side him. And yet, he's not that good as a face. He has some face qualities, but it's few and far between. It's obvious when you watch him that he really just wants to heel it up.
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Re: Orton is a horrible face. Why is he so over?

Post by templar » Sun May 29, 2011 8:12 pm

A good comparison to Randy Orton as an antihero is Dexter, from the TV-show.

When I watch Dexter I find myself rooting for him, even though this is not the "right" thing to do, and his actions is not even remotely close to something a real hero, like Superman would do.

Orton gives me a similar vibe when I watch him, he says and does things that a normal face, like Cena would never consider, the punt is a prime example to this. Yet I find myself rooting for him, as does a majority of the crowd, which just goes to show that unorthodox and shades-of-grey-methods may sometimes be what the crowd wants to see. In a "It's cool to be the bad boy"-sort of way.
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Re: Orton is a horrible face. Why is he so over?

Post by coco » Mon May 30, 2011 10:21 am

El Canuck wrote:No offense at all, I used to frequent Steve's World of Wrestling forum way back when that site still existed, that was my regular forum hangout, I also appeared on a tape trader forum called Bif Everchad's, there were a handful of others back when Geocities and Bravenet were popular forum hosts, but those were my main two. Then I broke in to the business and lost touch with the forums, now I'm retired, and I check the site every day for news, so I thought I'd check out it's forum, see if any of the SWoW crew migrated here, see what the Smarkies were into these days, talk some wrestling, that sort of stuff.
hmnnn by your name I assume you are canadian, and you just retired from 'the business'... that's a rated R...idiculously odd coincidence. Ladies and Gentlemen Edge is in the house
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Re: Orton is a horrible face. Why is he so over?

Post by Greg_McNeish » Mon May 30, 2011 1:15 pm

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Re: Orton is a horrible face. Why is he so over?

Post by Aussie_Wolf » Mon May 30, 2011 7:46 pm

coco wrote:
El Canuck wrote:No offense at all, I used to frequent Steve's World of Wrestling forum way back when that site still existed, that was my regular forum hangout, I also appeared on a tape trader forum called Bif Everchad's, there were a handful of others back when Geocities and Bravenet were popular forum hosts, but those were my main two. Then I broke in to the business and lost touch with the forums, now I'm retired, and I check the site every day for news, so I thought I'd check out it's forum, see if any of the SWoW crew migrated here, see what the Smarkies were into these days, talk some wrestling, that sort of stuff.
hmnnn by your name I assume you are canadian, and you just retired from 'the business'... that's a rated R...idiculously odd coincidence. Ladies and Gentlemen Edge is in the house
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