Bret Hart critical of WWE booking

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Re: Bret Hart critical of WWE booking

Post by TheLyontamer » Sun May 15, 2011 4:01 pm

Kostka wrote:I think the problem here is you're basically saying "Drew needs to wrestle more shitty guys in order to be an elite wrestler".
The funny thing is, we are more or less arguing about the same thing. When you put it the way you have above, my point sounds idiotic. That is more or less what I'm saying, but it's a lot more important than you're giving it credit for. I believe that a big part of being considered an elite wrestler is having the ability to work with guys less able than you are and having a good match with them. And what does that have to do with? Adaptability! Yes, McIntyre is adaptable at working different kinds of matches but is he adaptable at working with a plethora of different opponents? I view that aspect as being crucial when discussing a wrestlers' adaptability.

Look at Triple H, for example. He is very adaptable at working different match types. He's a good babyface, he's a good heel. He's had good long matches and good short matches. Really adaptable, right? But when it comes to working with different opponents, he's not so adaptable. He has little to no chemistry with Randy Orton, a guy of simiar or slightly less ability to him. He has little to no chemistry with Edge, who is a similar case. When he faced Vladimir Kozlov and The Great Khali, he tried to frickin' mat wrestle the guys and make them fit his style. That's not adapting to accomodate your opponent. His blatant shortcoming has always been his inability to work well with a variety of guys of similar to less ability and that is what stops him from reaching the level of an 'elite' worker for me. Very good, but not the best of the best.

Randy Orton is another case. I don't want to open another debate here but I have always considered John Cena to be better than Orton. Why? Orton's a great heel and Cena's a great babyface. They have both had success in a number of matches. So what makes Cena better? It's the fact that he is able to take a guy who possesses less in-ring ability than he does and pull a good match out of them. Khali, Sheamus, Barrett, Lashley, Umaga, Miz, Edge, Swagger, Ziggler, etc. The list goes on and on. Orton on the other hand is very good in different match types against the right opponent and can play a number of different roles but when he needs to switch things up in order to accomodate his weaker opponents' shortcomings he generally fails. See his matches with Miz, Swagger, Sheamus and Barrett among others.

It's nice for Drew to be able to wrestle a number of fantastic matches against a variety of great opponents but if you want to be called one of the absolute best in the business then you can't rely on wrestling opponents who are just as good as you every single week. I know he has pulled good matches out of lesser guys a couple of times but I need to see McIntyre do that week in and week out over a long period of time. That's what Cena does. That's what Masters does. That's what Rey does. That's what Regal does. That's what Finlay did. That's what Matt Hardy did. That's what Christian did during his excellent title run on ECW back in 2009.

For me, the major thing that separates an elite worker from a very good one is the elite worker's ability to pull a good match out of a weaker opponent, which is something that needs to be done on a regular basis. That's clearly what separates Cena and Orton and I am baffled as to why you view it as highly overrated. If you want to be considered one of the top five guys in the company, you need to be able to put on good matches with people on the levels below you. I know that you have shown me a few examples but that's not enough to call him an unquestionably top level guy.

McIntyre went from being rather shitty a year ago to being decent six months ago to being very good now. He has just recently reached that 'very good' level. Give him time. He's still a work in progress. I don't believe that he has peaked yet. As long as he still has a ways to go, he is not an elite worker. The next 6-12 months will be crucial in determining where his ceiling is. He has progressed very well and is fine for where he's at right now. If he has good matches with a variety of less able opponents over the next few months then I will congratulate him on making the final step. I just disagree that he has already reached that stage and that working with guys of less ability is overrated. That couldn't be further from the truth when separating the best from the VERY best, if you know what I'm saying.

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Re: Bret Hart critical of WWE booking

Post by candyxwrapper » Sun May 15, 2011 6:46 pm

So am I the only one that finds Drew McIntyre to be completely boring? I can't sit through one of his matches even if he's wrestling someone I like. I just don't get him. He's mic skills are bad, he has zero charisma, and from what little i've seen of him wrestler I don't think he's that good.
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Re: Bret Hart critical of WWE booking

Post by rangerrick012 » Sun May 15, 2011 6:58 pm

candyxwrapper wrote:So am I the only one that finds Drew McIntyre to be completely boring? I can't sit through one of his matches even if he's wrestling someone I like. I just don't get him. He's Sheik skills are bad, he has zero charisma, and from what little i've seen of him wrestler I don't think he's that good.
That's SO 2009 of you...:?

But in all seriousness, I really do think Drew has picked it up the past few months. His performance at EC was spectacular, and I think he's carried that fire into all of his matches this year. He's had a couple of great matches w/ Rey, and the match w/ Masters was great as well. I still think he needs a bit more work, which is why putting him on Superstars isn't the big affront Bret seems to think it is.
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Re: Bret Hart critical of WWE booking

Post by TheLyontamer » Sun May 15, 2011 7:03 pm

Well, as Goober pointed out earlier his major downfall are his Sheik skills and character. The whole "Chosen One" thing never really worked out and he hasn't really had a character since then. I don't think he's all that bad on the mic. I think I'm one of the only ones who quite enjoyed all his "TEDDY!" promos last year. I think the tools for character development are there. He's also got much more of a presence now than he did before. He's no longer devoid of charisma so I have strong hope that he'll improve in that department.

As for his in-ring ability, up until around eight months ago he was an actively shitty worker. But over the past few months he's come on leaps and bounds and is easily one of the most capable midcard workers in the company. He's improving with every match I see so as far as I can tell, he's going to continue getting better and better.

McIntyre is a guy that, as I went into above, has all the makings of a great wrestler and is making huge strides towards becoming one. It's impossible to know how high his ceiling is but give it another year or so and I think we could be talking about one of the top main event heels in the company. Maybe even sooner if he gets the 'Swagger' push.

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Re: Bret Hart critical of WWE booking

Post by Kostka » Sun May 15, 2011 7:28 pm

The funny thing is, we are more or less arguing about the same thing. When you put it the way you have above, my point sounds idiotic. That is more or less what I'm saying, but it's a lot more important than you're giving it credit for. I believe that a big part of being considered an elite wrestler is having the ability to work with guys less able than you are and having a good match with them. And what does that have to do with? Adaptability! Yes, McIntyre is adaptable at working different kinds of matches but is he adaptable at working with a plethora of different opponents? I view that aspect as being crucial when discussing a wrestlers' adaptability.
We've gone through this...Yes. He's had several good matches with many different opponents. Masters, Kane, Kofi, Tatsu, JTG, Baretta, Christian, Morrison, Low Ki, Hardy, Finlay, Edge, Mysterio, so on. We've already established that you can't just throw on the "well he was in there with so and so, no wonder it was good" tag as he delivered consistently fantastic performances in matches with a wide range of opponents, and as big a contributor or bigger in his best matches.
Look at Triple H, for example. He is very adaptable at working different match types. He's a good babyface, he's a good heel. He's had good long matches and good short matches. Really adaptable, right? But when it comes to working with different opponents, he's not so adaptable. He has little to no chemistry with Randy Orton, a guy of simiar or slightly less ability to him. He has little to no chemistry with Edge, who is a similar case. When he faced Vladimir Kozlov and The Great Khali, he tried to frickin' mat wrestle the guys and make them fit his style. That's not adapting to accomodate your opponent. His blatant shortcoming has always been his inability to work well with a variety of guys of similar to less ability and that is what stops him from reaching the level of an 'elite' worker for me. Very good, but not the best of the best.
I never thought of HHH as an adaptable worker, infact a very limited one. His long matches are usually bad, and his best matches are smoke and mirrors with better workers, though I've found him to be pretty good working "ace vs underdog" template matches against guys like TAKA and Shelton. Bad comparison because Drew is much more adaptable and a bigger contributor to his best matches, and hasn't shown to have bad chemistry with anyone.
Randy Orton is another case. I don't want to open another debate here but I have always considered John Cena to be better than Orton. Why? Orton's a great heel and Cena's a great babyface. They have both had success in a number of matches. So what makes Cena better? It's the fact that he is able to take a guy who possesses less in-ring ability than he does and pull a good match out of them. Khali, Sheamus, Barrett, Lashley, Umaga, Miz, Edge, Swagger, Ziggler, etc. The list goes on and on. Orton on the other hand is very good in different match types against the right opponent and can play a number of different roles but when he needs to switch things up in order to accomodate his weaker opponents' shortcomings he generally fails. See his matches with Miz, Swagger, Sheamus and Barrett among others.
Orton is actually a very one dimensional worker. I don't find him to be a guy that excells in different match types at all. Infact, he's pretty bad at it. He's had a lot of bad/forgettable matches because of this. The Sheamus/Orton series was actually quite good which I'd attribute to Sheamus being one of the better WWE main event workers they have.

Cena and Drew are comparable in the sense that both have a wide range of good-great matches with a lot of different guys and can adapt. Cenas selling as a babyface can really "make" someone. Drew doesn't work WWE main event babyface though, he's a heel. Hes great at reigning guys in, working sensible, solid control segments, setting up comebacks and cutting them off etc etc. much like he did in the Masters bout last week. Drews been far more consistent than Cena in the past year, though.
but if you want to be called one of the absolute best in the business then you can't rely on wrestling opponents who are just as good as you every single week. I know he has pulled good matches out of lesser guys a couple of times but I need to see McIntyre do that week in and week out over a long period of time. That's what Cena does. That's what Masters does. That's what Rey does. That's what Regal does. That's what Finlay did. That's what Matt Hardy did. That's what Christian did during his excellent title run on ECW back in 2009.
So Drew will be an elite worker the day WWE decides to book him against shitty wrestlers, week after week? Who invented this criteque? None of those guys wrestled lesser opponents week to week, they wrestled a variety, much like Drew is now. Christian is the only guy you could really point to as a guy who developed a formula that he had to plug a bunch of green guys into to have good matches with. It was the nature of the booking at the time, when he was positioned as the ace babyface on a developmental farm show. He did a great job, but it's not like that's the only means of being a great worker.
For me, the major thing that separates an elite worker from a very good one is the elite worker's ability to pull a good match out of a weaker opponent, which is something that needs to be done on a regular basis. That's clearly what separates Cena and Orton and I am baffled as to why you view it as highly overrated. If you want to be considered one of the top five guys in the company, you need to be able to put on good matches with people on the levels below you. I know that you have shown me a few examples but that's not enough to call him an unquestionably top level guy.
This again. You keep writing off what Drew does in matches with fellow great workers as "it doesn't matter, he's in the ring with The God Of Workrate, he needs to work Mason Ryan more to be DAELITE~". Drew has great matches and delivers big in them, in various settings, against strong and weak opponents alike. Just because he doesnt work the Great Khali every week, doesn't change things. He's delivering at a higher level every time he's used, moreso than most guys in the company right now, in more 'different' ways than anyone not named Rey or Masters. Drew is insanely good right now.
Formely HooRAH~

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Re: Bret Hart critical of WWE booking

Post by cjbowman » Sun May 22, 2011 2:05 am

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Re: Bret Hart critical of WWE booking

Post by El Canuck » Sat May 28, 2011 12:47 pm

I'm glad to see that all the smarks with exactly 0 years inside the business know more than one of the best to ever lace up a pair of wrestling boots. This thread makes me hate the IWC, you think you know what's best for the business over Bret Hart? Really? A man who's not only spent 30+ years in the business but grew up in the middle of it with one of the best bookers and trainers of all time as a father? A man who was one of the top stars of his era? Yet Some smark on an internet forum who doesn't know headlock from headlight is better qualified to to determine who's a good wrestler and who's not? Give me a break.

Incontinence jokes, really? He's a 52 year old stroke survivor and you want to crack incontinence jokes. Nothing but disrespect for one of the best men the business has ever seen. Pathetic.
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Re: Bret Hart critical of WWE booking

Post by The1_and? » Sat May 28, 2011 12:52 pm

Well Accualy I have a teacher in my school who used to be "Tank toland" in the ROH and A Dick in WWE.

And he said he was in the Royal Rumble, even thoughh he was not. He also said TNA was "getting better" even if we all know it's not. Even yo6u can agree!

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Re: Bret Hart critical of WWE booking

Post by El Canuck » Sat May 28, 2011 12:55 pm

What the hell does that have to do with anything?
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Re: Bret Hart critical of WWE booking

Post by The1_and? » Sat May 28, 2011 12:59 pm

Just goes to show that sometimes former pro wrestlers are not very intelligent, he was maing up stuff and resfused to admit he was pinned by the Boogeyman. He said his partner was even though he was. Give me a break!

Just goes to show that wrestlers can be a little funny and sometimes we are smarter then them.

Im smart enough to know he was NOT in the Royal Rumble.

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Re: Bret Hart critical of WWE booking

Post by El Canuck » Sat May 28, 2011 1:02 pm

So you're saying that because Tank Toland lied* to you and said TNA was getting better that you automatically know more than BRET HART? What kind of gilted logic is that? A TEENAGER in high school was lied to by Tank Tolland and suddenly he knows more than BRET HART!!!???

*Allegedly
Last edited by El Canuck on Sat May 28, 2011 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bret Hart critical of WWE booking

Post by The1_and? » Sat May 28, 2011 1:03 pm

Yes.

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Re: Bret Hart critical of WWE booking

Post by El Canuck » Sat May 28, 2011 1:10 pm

Really? Why would Tank even feel compelled to be honest with you, some teenage punk anyhow? Why should he be? What have you accomplished that's worthy of Tank treating you like anything more than a smark.* Also, please elaborate, oh wise one, how this interaction with Tank Toland helps you arrive at the conclusion that you know more than BRET HART?

*If in fact any of this occured.
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Re: Bret Hart critical of WWE booking

Post by The1_and? » Sat May 28, 2011 1:15 pm

No I PROMISE to everything you believe in or I believe in.

I sware that Tank toland said he was in the royal rumble. He said he got eliminated by Bobby lashley. I sware this happened. Look at his Wiki. Look at his matches on youtube and there will be comments saying "look its my teacher"

I PROMISE.

And I accualy won the championship fr my hockey team, I was there star Golaie. It was 8 yeras ago but still.

Im smart enough to know he was NOT in the rumble. Just as im smart enough to know Hart is wrong about little Drew cause not every wreslter has to be a bad ass heel and sometiems guys gotta be used like that. Steve Austin was nothing when he first came now look at him. Does it bother you that Austin might have lost a match on some random WWE show when he came in? No, cause he became a cool guy.

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Re: Bret Hart critical of WWE booking

Post by El Canuck » Sat May 28, 2011 1:24 pm

The1_and? wrote:No I PROMISE to everything you believe in or I believe in.

I sware that Tank toland said he was in the royal rumble. He said he got eliminated by Bobby lashley. I sware this happened. Look at his Wiki. Look at his matches on youtube and there will be comments saying "look its my teacher"

I PROMISE.

And I accualy won the championship fr my hockey team, I was there star Golaie. It was 8 yeras ago but still.

Im smart enough to know he was NOT in the rumble. Just as im smart enough to know Hart is wrong about little Drew cause not every wreslter has to be a bad @$$ heel and sometiems guys gotta be used like that. Steve Austin was nothing when he first came now look at him. Does it bother you that Austin might have lost a match on some random WWE show when he came in? No, cause he became a cool guy.
I hope Toland's not your English teacher. Bret's not talking about a loss on Superstars, he's talking about Drew's push as a whole you mark.
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Re: Bret Hart critical of WWE booking

Post by The1_and? » Sat May 28, 2011 1:26 pm

Why does drew need a push he 25(!!) Years old. Why does he need to win? Why does he need to be on Raw? HE DOES NOT!

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Re: Bret Hart critical of WWE booking

Post by El Canuck » Sat May 28, 2011 1:33 pm

You MARK, Listen well. Push does not equal a huge win streak. A Push equals storylines and matches used to build a wrestler up to a higher position on the card, Wins and losses are fairly irrelevant in wrestling as long as the Wrestler is getting adequate screen time and storylines to help elevate his character. That's your lesson for today, and that's why you know less than Bret Hart.
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Re: Bret Hart critical of WWE booking

Post by The1_and? » Sat May 28, 2011 1:36 pm

Well whatever I have no idea what you are talking about anyway all i know is Bret is wrong.

I dont consider myself really smart but I disagree that "being wasted" means not being on TV or in a storyline cause hes only 25 and will ahve time to.

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Re: Bret Hart critical of WWE booking

Post by GooberBM » Sat May 28, 2011 1:40 pm

El Canuck wrote:You MARK, Listen well. Push does not equal a huge win streak. A Push equals storylines and matches used to build a wrestler up to a higher position on the card, Wins and losses are fairly irrelevant in wrestling as long as the Wrestler is getting adequate screen time and storylines to help elevate his character. That's your lesson for today, and that's why you know less than Bret Hart.
have you been watching his matches on superstars and raw since he got drafted? Because that's what they're doing with him. They're just doing it slowly because Raw is log-jammed right now. I am on the Dre Mac Wins MITB bandwagon, which means they're laying the groundwork to strap a rocket to his ass as we speak. So don't sweat it Canuck, The Chosen One's time is coming
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Re: Bret Hart critical of WWE booking

Post by El Canuck » Sat May 28, 2011 1:40 pm

That's right, you don't know what I'm talking about, thanks for proving my point.
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